Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Reaper989
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Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:20 am

To this date Druids still remain the only healer class without medium armor, while yes they do have AoE/single target potential (which they are outclassed in both areas) there are downsides. Granted, one of the more impressive benefits would be access to elite medium armor for those who may want it.

I will say that they do obviously have the advantage of all of their AoE's being group friendly, but there are some key points to mention.
  • Both snares deal piercing damage over time, which is easily one of the highest stacked resistance types in the game.
  • Earthquake while it "could" be listed as an option, remains more of a PVE skill or if your enemy simply isn't paying attention to allow you to hit with it.
  • DA was added on live to try and "fix" the druid's low base resist spread, yet was given pierce/crush/cold to give it a form of weakness. Even tho slash was always a harder resist to stack on leather armor.
  • While a "channeler" is the closest thing to a druid, with the current changes set on SBemu their damage is considerably more consistent (charmed and general resist nerfs)
  • Covering the point above, Channelers are able to constantly cycle AoE's, even if they are not exactly group friendly (besides the cold AoE in the current build.

Do druids "need" Medium armor? Not exactly, but the overall increase to resists would be 12.5% (10.5% wearing a cloth hood) across the board which is hardly "OP" by any means. Unlike other offensive healers it lacks stun immunity, dispel effect (for enemy buffs or debuffs), has no healing methods through SM (via dispel or sacrafice), and even if we consider blight/CL/thorns DPS it actually is quite low unless we compare it to a prelate/crusader that has an enemy stacking resists against it. And at no point will any offensive healer compare to a healer channeler (Which I can understand LA on a channeler especially with rank 20 offensive stance now <3 )or confessor in DPS on the current build.

With the change also to Braialla's Kiss, there is no "oh Skah!" button anymore to allow them to save face. While the HoT mechanics added are interesting between the previous percent heals, one of which was only niche as it could heal allies at the targeted area and around the caster at the same time, they did not address durability lost by doing so.

And since the addition of Blessing of the Grove (Honestly, this buff was never needed, it simply added another point sink.) most people will probably not have the AP to train BK, Breathe of Spring, or Regrowth. And let's face it... Blessed Mending & PoM are superior choices even if we consider regrowth's kiting potential (which even then you'd regrowth and then use BM while it ticks)

And based on the current wiki, which I have to assume is correct, that thorns/blight are currently not at .1 casting time. Which if they are planned to be increased to 1s on cast time, (which is what confessor's DoT cast time was on live except for the drain DoT, which was at least 2 seconds but is 1 seconds on the wiki) then there's even more factors to support trying to increase durability of said class.

No, I don't expect this to stick nor be supported. But it's a long time coming, and so far it seems that it remains the only healer class that got no quality of life changes let alone considerably solid buffs.

P.S. While the idea of cloak of thorns returning 100% of the enemy's weapon damage back was funny, without a doubt it was broken as hell and should never return. :D
Neal
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:25 am

Its been awhile since I've played but I'm pretty sure both Channeler and Doomsayer can not wear medium armor.
Reaper989
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:16 pm

Neal wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:25 am
Its been awhile since I've played but I'm pretty sure both Channeler and Doomsayer can not wear medium armor.
Well should have clarified of classes that only can promote from healer, doomsayer and channeler have mage alternatives. Channelers have a stronger stance now while being superior on AoE damage. Doomsayers of course are great for draining out targets while also having the advantage of not worrying about resistances.

But yes, doomsayers and channelers don't have MA (and shouldn't, good luck taking out a mino doomsayer in MA, channelers have much stronger firepower) while having the option of mages.

Druids in their current state on the emu only lost their % heals for HoT's, which hopefully isn't too bad.... The group % heal change is definitely welcome and interesting. Unsure on Regrowth as BM is superior unless you are kiting harder to make use of the ticks.

Well and single target raptor cloak which is more of a quality of life change so it's not as worthless (not that any druid has points to GM it)
Cryfowl
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:16 pm

I think in order to sell this you have to convince me that Druids are lacking in the defensive survivability department and i don't really think they are. They are (or were once upon a time) one of the best offensive healer casters in the game (cents especially) and IMO that really hasn't changed. You tend to see far more druids than most healers (except perhaps priests who are non offensive period).

Interesting you brought up the elite MA. Another thing that I am not comfortable with giving them. That's damn powerful stuff for an offensive healer. I would almost consider it for a Doomy over a druid for no other reason except the massive survival potential advantage via heals that druids have.
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Reaper989
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:49 am

Cryfowl wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:16 pm
I think in order to sell this you have to convince me that Druids are lacking in the defensive survivability department and i don't really think they are. They are (or were once upon a time) one of the best offensive healer casters in the game (cents especially) and IMO that really hasn't changed. You tend to see far more druids than most healers (except perhaps priests who are non offensive period).

Interesting you brought up the elite MA. Another thing that I am not comfortable with giving them. That's damn powerful stuff for an offensive healer. I would almost consider it for a Doomy over a druid for no other reason except the massive survival potential advantage via heals that druids have.
Centaurs are only due to their speed, obviously. Aelfborn as well for snarebreak/immunity, yet with FoF they might be a superior choice due to not losing stat points as hard as other healers with windlords nerf.

Best offensive?.... Confessors and Channelers are leaps and bounds above it, even before the stance increase to channelers. As for seeing far more druids, that's mostly due to using them to powerlevel as their AoE's are group friendly.

A doomsayer, unlike a druid, bypasses all resistance types and has far superior race choices (minotaur and neph) to be fair. But even before that, unlike most other healers doomsayers can be self-efficient even wearing full resists which is a huge advantage over most other healers. Plus if you check the recent changes, there "is" an HPS increase but it is still not superior to BM but is solid when paired with it. Their % heal changes are interesting, but again this will only effect HPS... it is interesting but the single target % heal will simply be a regrowth with slower ticks and longer duration.

This is all before considering the damage types Druids even use. While doomsayers easily bypass these issues, obviously they lack AoE.
  • Piercing (2x) which is easily the most commonly stacked resist type. The only thing saving these is the fact they have a snare attached to them.
  • Poison while having a semi-decent nuke infront of a DoT for it's cast time, a confessor does it better. (Yet a confessor has no ranged AoE)
  • Lightning which is another commonly resisted damage type, along with fire, but it's also their only hard CC.
  • Crushing will get you killed unless they lack any CC and also ignore you for the crazy long cast time it has.
Doomsayer is a mage/healer class, which access to neph/mino. Why would it need MA?.... Buff dispel, dispel debuff, blind, superior DA, stamina heals for days, and built in regen counter (50% for 1 point? ezpz). And obviously the power damage buff it can give to 2-3 people which may or may not include them within those numbers. Which is considerably strong being an offensive healer that can dispel SM/etc.

And as I supported even on live, if Druids got MA then the DA should be removed. It was a a poor way to address durability with the only "niche" DA in-game by covering "cold" rather than slashing.
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:13 am

Reaper989
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:12 pm

Bumping this thread again after trying out the recent changes...

Just feels ugly as a class right now when other healers are stepping into "group friendly AoE" territory, I understand AoE thorns having cast time but there is very little reason for Thorns to be beyond 1s cast time.
  • Thorns (Single Target) : Reduce to 1s cast time, or less, which should also include Rangers imho.

    Thorns will always be useful, obviously, but there is no real harm in this ability being 1s cast time.
  • Blight : 3 seconds is quite fair, now if only our dispel poison was a reasonable cast time... 4 seconds is depressing.

    The .6 cast time reduction is a huge improvement, granted still doesn't warrant 40 trains... 1-20 or nadda.

    .
  • Braialla's Kiss : Reduce cast time to instant if there are no plans to bring back the % heal, I get it has uptime to be on three targets, but it's ramp up to even be useful is painful because of it's cast time.

    Even considering all of this, the HoT is very minimal... the % heal had far more use. If it had a large upfront heal to compensate for this loss it wouldn't be too bad, but currently it's regrowth's HoT with a longer timer on ticks. I'd probably rate it below Blight in terms of point efficiency which is really bad... it's only saving grace is that it stacks with every HoT.

    This is probably the most frustrating addition to druids, compared to having a 50% heal every 3 minutes vs an average of 1.5k healing over 60 seconds. Yes, the current version heals more over the timeframe of 3 minutes... but I fail to see the logic behind not keeping at least some burst on this heal and instead giving us a sub-par priest HoT on a longer cooldown.

    .
  • Breath Of Spring : Reduce cast time to 3 seconds, make functionality the same as it used to (AoE around target and user), reduce cooldown to 60 seconds, remove the ward (they will be annoying when you want other wards), and add an up-front heal like Prayer of Mending on all effected targets.

    Kinda understand the theme, at least this one is helpful... but ghetto priest heals on long HoT is not exactly "great".

    .
  • Oaken Flesh : Remove and grant Medium Armor, no other healer needed DA to begin (nor should confessors with their drains, DPS, and short cast times....)

    Oaken Flesh is not a viable fix for this class, even then DA's should only be on Mages anyways considering we already have passive defense. Don't get me wrong, when getting hit by piercing/crushing/cold damage it is extremely helpful, but the fact it's the only DA that is "different" is a moronic design choice by SBG.

    .
  • Blessing of the Grove : Remove, honestly this was a filler attempt when SB was live to give us a "perk" which was never truthfully needed nor justified. Bad bandaid fix attempts are bad.

    Already dropped this to 2 trains to test the new HoT's, honestly it's sorta worth it as the damage loss is minimal while the healing increase is quite solid. It was a point sink because we have so many trash abilities.

    .
  • Druid Sword : Replace with Hammer, at least then we'd have a piercing and crushing expose along with other decent weapon powers for "lawls".

    No really... SBG's and Wolfpack's Sword boner needed to stop ages ago with the fact Swords have [fluffy bunnies]-poor weapon powers. Not to mention the art designs for the longest time were always staff or dagger. Which, even if hammer is more viable, it would not break dex fanatics that were using the sword previously.

    .
  • Earthquake : Reduce it's cast time, make it ranged, and reduce it's damage considerably. (Even just cast time is enough, honestly)

    There's a reason this ability was only used for telebombing, if you manage to pull this off on your enemies they are probably braindead, they deal [fluffy bunnies] poor damage, or you happen to already be stun immune yet somehow still live sitting still for 6 seconds.

    .
  • Cloak of Thorns/Resist Buffs : Can't find any points to sink into these, even on a human they aren't worth the trains.

    Seriously tho... where would I find these points?

    .
  • Braialla's judgement : While it's great for killing pets and it's animation is pretty cool, if it's only going to do % damage it should probably clear pet buffs in that area.

    Solid ability none the less for 1 point.

    .
  • Raptor Cloak - While it is claimed to be single target, it's long recast seems unjustified for an ability which strictly is to get over walls as you cannot attack/cast/stance/etc from it.

    If there happened to be more terrible abilities I'd consider GM'ing this just to [fluffy bunnies] off wereform and huntress/ranger toons by taking them out of form. Currently I can't find the 40 trains to troll this up.
Edit : Also going to include the fact resists are now 4/5 and not 4.5/4.5/5 and yes Druids still have group friendly AoE's, but once you remove the DA and maybe Blessing of the Grove while maybe tweaking the above it could at least be a more well rounded class.
Reaper989
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Re: Yup, this thread again. (Druid Medium Armor)

Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:32 pm

Bumping this thread yet again as it isn't stated that the fire AND cold AoE on channeler's are group friendly... Well the fire at least. But function as such in-game.

So channeler's have a two group friendly AoE's
Equal offensive stance
Stealth
Flight
Superior race options besides Centaur.
Exposes to each element they have
A blight-like fire nuke/DoT

Yet also have a DA for all physical damage types?

Next Call Lighting will be group friendly so we can phase out druids all together besides a weaker priest HoT on a cooldown and being the only class still to not reach solid potential until 40+.

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