Vamp Bow Scout

Rotard
Snow Terror
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:44 pm

Deathmarch wrote:If I had the video I'd also have the back-to-back embarrassment of a deflar that lost to me on a shade dagger thief without bothering to cast Sway or wings, and the two scouts and bow ranger who only managed to kill me after I ran out of stamina killing two of them.

Damn that was a fun day.
Sweet, i miss those days.
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Pollarixie
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:12 pm

These vamp scouts are pitiful. Skah! con, Skah! defense, Skah! resists.
maxwell
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Mac wrote:Belgosh is only good if you need to summon, strigoi is for true pvp :)
Interesting build, but I disagree here. The strigoi vs. belgosch question is an open one. Sure, belgosch gives summon. But it also gives a second vamp drain with a 10-second recast timer (10 seconds). Having access to this, especially because you're high INT and low CON, is important.

If you value Feral Fury > second drain + summon capability, that's fine. It's all about playstyle. But saying that belgosch is "only" good for summoning and a poor PvP choice is a bit extreme.

Additionally, I'm curious about your build. Going INT+DEX is interesting. You're going high DPS and proccing/draining heavy. Fine. But going 25% resist LA is a curious choice. You'd think you'd be able to take advantage of your potential to go high DEF, or at least take advantage of the net benefit of 100% LA. Relying solely on dodge and dealing out the DPS fast enough is a risky move (and further underscores the benefit of the second drain).

I also think the 20 trains in Plague (Rat Catcher) aren't well spent (75% regen debuff would only be decisive against certain foes), and you can save the traveler trains and boost your LA. Heck, if you really want traveler because you're running around the map, it increases the case for belgosch.
8Shade
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:04 pm

maxwell wrote:But it also gives a second vamp drain with a 10-second recast timer (10 seconds).
Belgosh gives second vamp drain only to mages, because it requires sorcery 1. So belgosh is really only for summon.
Pollarixie
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:52 pm

There's only one awesome reason to take ratcatcher on a vamp, and I don't see you utilizing it.
maxwell
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:57 pm

8Shade wrote:
maxwell wrote:But it also gives a second vamp drain with a 10-second recast timer (10 seconds).
Belgosh gives second vamp drain only to mages, because it requires sorcery 1. So belgosh is really only for summon.
I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I believe you're wrong. The Wiki does list sorcery 1, but I'm fairly certain I've had both drains on my scout before.

Given that both of our memories are a bit foggy on our vamp scouts (you were unsure about training detect hidden, I'm not 100% on this), I'm trusting my instincts for now.
Memnon
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:46 am

Maxwell,

It was changed in a patch. I had a Vamp, Belgosch Scout at the end of SB and can absolutely vouch that at the end of SB, only Vamp Mages had the second drain. On a seperate note, I completely agree about the value of Belgosch vs Strigoi. Of course, being able to negate passive defense is awesome....but Belgosch provides a tactical advantage I'm unwilling to give up.

v/r,

M
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Vuringrath
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:56 am

The drain only lasted a couple of months before they switched it to mage only.
tasmanian
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:43 pm

Vuringrath wrote:The drain only lasted a couple of months before they switched it to mage only.
It was way too overpowered and got nerfed fast. I enjoyed those couple of months a lot.
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maxwell
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:47 am

Damn. I could've sworn I had both. Maybe I'm just senile. Or maybe I'm remembering (occasionally) using both the regular drain and the non-player-only version while leveling (or in the random encounter where there are mobs around).

Still, gaining summons access is a viable rationale for going belgosch over strigoi, even for the "pure-PvP" mindset. Heck, you've got points sunk into traveler. How does that help you during the actual PvP? Being able to get places and being able to summon backup are both beneficial.
tasmanian
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:26 pm

maxwell wrote:Damn. I could've sworn I had both. Maybe I'm just senile. Or maybe I'm remembering (occasionally) using both the regular drain and the non-player-only version while leveling (or in the random encounter where there are mobs around).

Still, gaining summons access is a viable rationale for going belgosch over strigoi, even for the "pure-PvP" mindset. Heck, you've got points sunk into traveler. How does that help you during the actual PvP? Being able to get places and being able to summon backup are both beneficial.
The vamp summon is quite useful. You can run around solo pvping and such. Then when you find a big group you can summon in your buddies to help. Instead of having to run abot all the way to where you are.

Heck even being able to summon a buff bot is nice.
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Cryfowl
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:35 pm

tasmanian wrote:
maxwell wrote:Damn. I could've sworn I had both. Maybe I'm just senile. Or maybe I'm remembering (occasionally) using both the regular drain and the non-player-only version while leveling (or in the random encounter where there are mobs around).

Still, gaining summons access is a viable rationale for going belgosch over strigoi, even for the "pure-PvP" mindset. Heck, you've got points sunk into traveler. How does that help you during the actual PvP? Being able to get places and being able to summon backup are both beneficial.
The vamp summon is quite useful. You can run around solo pvping and such. Then when you find a big group you can summon in your buddies to help. Instead of having to run abot all the way to where you are.

Heck even being able to summon a buff bot is nice.
On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
*** DEMOLITIONS EXPERT *** LOOKING FOR GROUP *** GOOD WITH WALLS ***
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Anarchophobia
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:45 pm

Cryfowl wrote:
tasmanian wrote:
maxwell wrote:Damn. I could've sworn I had both. Maybe I'm just senile. Or maybe I'm remembering (occasionally) using both the regular drain and the non-player-only version while leveling (or in the random encounter where there are mobs around).

Still, gaining summons access is a viable rationale for going belgosch over strigoi, even for the "pure-PvP" mindset. Heck, you've got points sunk into traveler. How does that help you during the actual PvP? Being able to get places and being able to summon backup are both beneficial.
The vamp summon is quite useful. You can run around solo pvping and such. Then when you find a big group you can summon in your buddies to help. Instead of having to run abot all the way to where you are.

Heck even being able to summon a buff bot is nice.
On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
I'd win debates too if I could just make up numbers.
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Rotard
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:56 pm

Anarchophobia wrote:
Cryfowl wrote:
tasmanian wrote:
The vamp summon is quite useful. You can run around solo pvping and such. Then when you find a big group you can summon in your buddies to help. Instead of having to run abot all the way to where you are.

Heck even being able to summon a buff bot is nice.
On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
I'd win debates too if I could just make up numbers.
You don't have a number pad on your keyboard?
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tasmanian
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:34 pm

Anarchophobia wrote:
Cryfowl wrote:
tasmanian wrote:
The vamp summon is quite useful. You can run around solo pvping and such. Then when you find a big group you can summon in your buddies to help. Instead of having to run abot all the way to where you are.

Heck even being able to summon a buff bot is nice.
On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
I'd win debates too if I could just make up numbers.
What he said.

Also it really depends on your play style. Summon wont be helpful if you are camping open trees. But if you played like I did, where you run through zones looking for people and groups to kill, it is vital. What are you going to do when your an 30 minutes away from the closest gate and an hour away from a city. There is no way you can solo an active group of r5, r6's and their pl toons. So either you pick one or two off with your "extra" dps, and then they summon in people to kill you. You run a bot for 30+ mins out there to try and roll them, or you summon in your guildies with a summon chain and roll them in 10 minutes time. I know which one I prefer.

I find summon a lot more useful in majority of situations.
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maxwell
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:36 pm

Cryfowl wrote:On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
So many assumptions, so little time.

1. You're interjecting "solo" into the debate. The original argument was about "true pvp." PvP isn't just one-on-one.

2. Let's assume your 25% DPS is accurate for a moment (and I'm not assuming that, as I'll address below). That only applies to toons with high passive defense. So, best case scenario, you're talking about DPS against certain toons. If you're arguing "on solo scout vs. solo scout encounters, strigoi has a high value because scouts often have high passive defense," I agree. But Shadowbane doesn't work that way. Your strigoi scout has an advantage over my belgosch scout when we compare one-on-one effectiveness. And my belgosch scout bypasses that one-on-one scenario by summoning in backup. Shadowbane is about more than dueling. If we're both after a gladiator rune, I'm going for the rune, not "even numbers" fights. I'll roll another toon for DooVoo, if I have time for such trivial concerns.

3. Your 25% doesn't apply to the vamp drain (or, at best, it applies at a lower rate, since passive defense kicks is only 50% as effective against spells and drains). It also doesn't account for the vamp drain being a two-for-one (transfer of health vs. mere DPS). So great, the passive-defense scout dodges 25% of my attacks. It's far less likely to dodge my 600 pt. drain, which is a 1,200 pt. net DPS.
Pollarixie
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:43 am

I'd go with 145 dex, 90 con, rest in int. But, that's just me.
Deathmarch
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:02 pm

maxwell wrote:
Cryfowl wrote:On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
So many assumptions, so little time.

1. You're interjecting "solo" into the debate. The original argument was about "true pvp." PvP isn't just one-on-one.

2. Let's assume your 25% DPS is accurate for a moment (and I'm not assuming that, as I'll address below). That only applies to toons with high passive defense. So, best case scenario, you're talking about DPS against certain toons. If you're arguing "on solo scout vs. solo scout encounters, strigoi has a high value because scouts often have high passive defense," I agree. But Shadowbane doesn't work that way. Your strigoi scout has an advantage over my belgosch scout when we compare one-on-one effectiveness. And my belgosch scout bypasses that one-on-one scenario by summoning in backup. Shadowbane is about more than dueling. If we're both after a gladiator rune, I'm going for the rune, not "even numbers" fights. I'll roll another toon for DooVoo, if I have time for such trivial concerns.

3. Your 25% doesn't apply to the vamp drain (or, at best, it applies at a lower rate, since passive defense kicks is only 50% as effective against spells and drains). It also doesn't account for the vamp drain being a two-for-one (transfer of health vs. mere DPS). So great, the passive-defense scout dodges 25% of my attacks. It's far less likely to dodge my 600 pt. drain, which is a 1,200 pt. net DPS.


1. Who cares. You also don't mention GvG, for which Belgosch is vastly superior, but that's irrelevant because we're discussing the merits of a generic bow scout, which should be built for self-reliance. Also who says the player is a Skah! who'd summon someone in just to win a duel, or even a 2v1. Maybe some of us enjoy the challenge of showing up scrubs with inferior numbers.

2. You can't summon in help any time you want anyways. 5 second casting times means a retard monkey could block you by smashing his face on the keyboard as long as grounding shot was hotkeyed. FF is reliable in a fight because he can use it whenever. In your supposed belgosch vs. strigoi scenario, it wouldn't really ever be just belgosch vs. strigoi because you'd have to summon in your friend as soon as the strig came on track, and that now puts the strig in a position to either block it or just leave and not fight.

3. We can do math a couple ways here. First, 3 of 4 base classes have access to passive defense. So the chances of an opponent having passive defense in a situation where all classes are equally represented is really high. Second, ALL rogues have dodge, and rogues make up the majority (or over 50%) of all solo toons you'll find running around in zones and such. THIRD, scouts get to choose their fights, so they can avoid difficult match-ups. Between all this, the majority of toons a vamp scout will fight will be toons that have at least some sort of passive defense, with the most common (and majority) form being dodge rogues, making FF a pretty reliable dps increase. And as to drains, I don't even know what the Skah! you're on about there. They both get the same drain, and thus the same DPS from drain, so how the Skah! is there any difference between a belg and a strig on that point.
Vandarr
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:24 pm

Deathmarch wrote:2. You can't summon in help any time you want anyways. 5 second casting times means a retard monkey could block you by smashing his face on the keyboard as long as grounding shot was hotkeyed.
One minor point - it's about 60 seconds from max track range to acquire a target on track, track said target, and run to them in stealth. That's more than enough time to use a 5 second cast to summon.

The ability to have any number of toons anywhere you are makes strig the superior rune, in my opinion. In fact, I think it's too strong to have on a scout. With it, you can literally send your scouts to multiple mines and leave your core reserve at home, ready to jump to whatever points they are needed via a summon chain.

Besides, any scout worth their salt doesn't need strigoi to win against other scouts - including other vamps. :)
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maxwell
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:28 pm

Deathmarch wrote:
maxwell wrote:
Cryfowl wrote:On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
So many assumptions, so little time.

1. You're interjecting "solo" into the debate. The original argument was about "true pvp." PvP isn't just one-on-one.
1. Who cares. You also don't mention GvG, for which Belgosch is vastly superior, but that's irrelevant because we're discussing the merits of a generic bow scout, which should be built for self-reliance. Also who says the player is a Skah! who'd summon someone in just to win a duel, or even a 2v1. Maybe some of us enjoy the challenge of showing up scrubs with inferior numbers.
How is this an argument? The debate was over "PvP." I say PvP isn't limited to 1 v. 1 duels. You counter with "you don't mention GvG." Complete spin. Fine, I acknowledge that the "noble soul" who won't summon anyone because they want a duel is better served with Strigoi than Belgosch. Why that idiot didn't just port to DooVoo for the fight is beyond me, but I'll concede your irrelevant hypothetical.
Deathmarch wrote:
maxwell wrote:2. Let's assume your 25% DPS is accurate for a moment (and I'm not assuming that, as I'll address below). That only applies to toons with high passive defense. So, best case scenario, you're talking about DPS against certain toons. If you're arguing "on solo scout vs. solo scout encounters, strigoi has a high value because scouts often have high passive defense," I agree. But Shadowbane doesn't work that way. Your strigoi scout has an advantage over my belgosch scout when we compare one-on-one effectiveness. And my belgosch scout bypasses that one-on-one scenario by summoning in backup. Shadowbane is about more than dueling. If we're both after a gladiator rune, I'm going for the rune, not "even numbers" fights. I'll roll another toon for DooVoo, if I have time for such trivial concerns.
2. You can't summon in help any time you want anyways. 5 second casting times means a retard monkey could block you by smashing his face on the keyboard as long as grounding shot was hotkeyed. FF is reliable in a fight because he can use it whenever. In your supposed belgosch vs. strigoi scenario, it wouldn't really ever be just belgosch vs. strigoi because you'd have to summon in your friend as soon as the strig came on track, and that now puts the strig in a position to either block it or just leave and not fight.
Vandarr answers this pretty well above. There is more than enough time to summon once someone comes on track. Even if the fight starts before the summoned toon arrives, it won't be over. If I'm on a Belgosch scout, I see a Strigoi scout on track and summon my assassin buddy, I'm not really worried about the hypothetical "~25% DPS" advantage I'm giving up for a few seconds at the start of the fight. The assassin arrives, blinds and 9 second stuns the vampire, poisons him, and he can take a nap for all I care. The fight isn't even close.

The summon capability is immensely more valuable in most practical (i.e. not "dueling") situations. Again, see Vandarr. The only scenarios where I'd rather have the Feral Fury advantage involve sandbox duels (i.e. irrelevant fun with no objective) and larger GvG fights (e.g., mines) where the slight superiority in DPS of a scout is highly unlikely to be a determining factor in the overall outcome. And in that latter example, having the scout who can summon STILL presents added fringe benefits (e.g., after the fight, if the group is victorious but loses several toons, you can summon back; before the fight, the scout alone can head out to the mine and start a summon chain).
Deathmarch wrote:
maxwell wrote:3. Your 25% doesn't apply to the vamp drain (or, at best, it applies at a lower rate, since passive defense kicks is only 50% as effective against spells and drains). It also doesn't account for the vamp drain being a two-for-one (transfer of health vs. mere DPS). So great, the passive-defense scout dodges 25% of my attacks. It's far less likely to dodge my 600 pt. drain, which is a 1,200 pt. net DPS.

3. We can do math a couple ways here. First, 3 of 4 base classes have access to passive defense. So the chances of an opponent having passive defense in a situation where all classes are equally represented is really high. Second, ALL rogues have dodge, and rogues make up the majority (or over 50%) of all solo toons you'll find running around in zones and such. THIRD, scouts get to choose their fights, so they can avoid difficult match-ups. Between all this, the majority of toons a vamp scout will fight will be toons that have at least some sort of passive defense, with the most common (and majority) form being dodge rogues, making FF a pretty reliable dps increase. And as to drains, I don't even know what the Skah! you're on about there. They both get the same drain, and thus the same DPS from drain, so how the Skah! is there any difference between a belg and a strig on that point.
1. Thanks for defining "majority" for me. Dictionary.com banned my IP and I wouldn't have known otherwise.

2. On a serious note, I don't really disagree with anything else you added here. But just because a toon has access to passive defense doesn't make it a golded (or even trained) attribute.

3. OK, let's assume that most fights are against other scouts. Yes, the Belgosch scout gives up DPS. We've discussed the tradeoff. The Belgosch scout can also pick its fight. It can decide "the toon on track is Deathmarch's scout, and he's a beast, I can't win 1 v. 1 (maybe the Strigoi is the difference, maybe it's all Deathmarch's skillful playstyle), I'm outta here." It can summon in help. It can stand its ground and take a chance. There are still options.

4. It's all about purpose, and I think we agree here. Let's be clear: if you want to run around the hotzone 1 v. 1 fighting stuff, the Belgosch scout isn't the BEST toon. You're leaving DPS on the table (how much is up for interpretation). If you want to run out to a rune drop, mine, leveling zone, and scout it out; Belgosch is your guy. My Belgosch INT/CON proccer could handle just about any other scout 1 v 1. Feral fury would've been nice, but it also would've sacrificed utility.
Deathmarch
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:45 pm

Vandarr wrote:
Deathmarch wrote:2. You can't summon in help any time you want anyways. 5 second casting times means a retard monkey could block you by smashing his face on the keyboard as long as grounding shot was hotkeyed.
One minor point - it's about 60 seconds from max track range to acquire a target on track, track said target, and run to them in stealth. That's more than enough time to use a 5 second cast to summon.

The ability to have any number of toons anywhere you are makes strig the superior rune, in my opinion. In fact, I think it's too strong to have on a scout. With it, you can literally send your scouts to multiple mines and leave your core reserve at home, ready to jump to whatever points they are needed via a summon chain.

Besides, any scout worth their salt doesn't need strigoi to win against other scouts - including other vamps. :)
I figured my post had encompassed this, which is why I said the strig solo would be the one leaving (when he saw the second dude pop on track), and just included the summon part because hey, maybe you weren't checking track for a few minutes and the scout is closer than you think when you go to summon.
maxwell wrote:
Deathmarch wrote:
maxwell wrote: So many assumptions, so little time.

1. You're interjecting "solo" into the debate. The original argument was about "true pvp." PvP isn't just one-on-one.
1. Who cares. You also don't mention GvG, for which Belgosch is vastly superior, but that's irrelevant because we're discussing the merits of a generic bow scout, which should be built for self-reliance. Also who says the player is a Skah! who'd summon someone in just to win a duel, or even a 2v1. Maybe some of us enjoy the challenge of showing up scrubs with inferior numbers.
How is this an argument? The debate was over "PvP." I say PvP isn't limited to 1 v. 1 duels. You counter with "you don't mention GvG." Complete spin. Fine, I acknowledge that the "noble soul" who won't summon anyone because they want a duel is better served with Strigoi than Belgosch. Why that idiot didn't just port to DooVoo for the fight is beyond me, but I'll concede your irrelevant hypothetical.
Deathmarch wrote:
maxwell wrote:2. Let's assume your 25% DPS is accurate for a moment (and I'm not assuming that, as I'll address below). That only applies to toons with high passive defense. So, best case scenario, you're talking about DPS against certain toons. If you're arguing "on solo scout vs. solo scout encounters, strigoi has a high value because scouts often have high passive defense," I agree. But Shadowbane doesn't work that way. Your strigoi scout has an advantage over my belgosch scout when we compare one-on-one effectiveness. And my belgosch scout bypasses that one-on-one scenario by summoning in backup. Shadowbane is about more than dueling. If we're both after a gladiator rune, I'm going for the rune, not "even numbers" fights. I'll roll another toon for DooVoo, if I have time for such trivial concerns.
2. You can't summon in help any time you want anyways. 5 second casting times means a retard monkey could block you by smashing his face on the keyboard as long as grounding shot was hotkeyed. FF is reliable in a fight because he can use it whenever. In your supposed belgosch vs. strigoi scenario, it wouldn't really ever be just belgosch vs. strigoi because you'd have to summon in your friend as soon as the strig came on track, and that now puts the strig in a position to either block it or just leave and not fight.
Vandarr answers this pretty well above. There is more than enough time to summon once someone comes on track. Even if the fight starts before the summoned toon arrives, it won't be over. If I'm on a Belgosch scout, I see a Strigoi scout on track and summon my assassin buddy, I'm not really worried about the hypothetical "~25% DPS" advantage I'm giving up for a few seconds at the start of the fight. The assassin arrives, blinds and 9 second stuns the vampire, poisons him, and he can take a nap for all I care. The fight isn't even close.

The summon capability is immensely more valuable in most practical (i.e. not "dueling") situations. Again, see Vandarr. The only scenarios where I'd rather have the Feral Fury advantage involve sandbox duels (i.e. irrelevant fun with no objective) and larger GvG fights (e.g., mines) where the slight superiority in DPS of a scout is highly unlikely to be a determining factor in the overall outcome. And in that latter example, having the scout who can summon STILL presents added fringe benefits (e.g., after the fight, if the group is victorious but loses several toons, you can summon back; before the fight, the scout alone can head out to the mine and start a summon chain).
Deathmarch wrote:
maxwell wrote:3. Your 25% doesn't apply to the vamp drain (or, at best, it applies at a lower rate, since passive defense kicks is only 50% as effective against spells and drains). It also doesn't account for the vamp drain being a two-for-one (transfer of health vs. mere DPS). So great, the passive-defense scout dodges 25% of my attacks. It's far less likely to dodge my 600 pt. drain, which is a 1,200 pt. net DPS.

3. We can do math a couple ways here. First, 3 of 4 base classes have access to passive defense. So the chances of an opponent having passive defense in a situation where all classes are equally represented is really high. Second, ALL rogues have dodge, and rogues make up the majority (or over 50%) of all solo toons you'll find running around in zones and such. THIRD, scouts get to choose their fights, so they can avoid difficult match-ups. Between all this, the majority of toons a vamp scout will fight will be toons that have at least some sort of passive defense, with the most common (and majority) form being dodge rogues, making FF a pretty reliable dps increase. And as to drains, I don't even know what the Skah! you're on about there. They both get the same drain, and thus the same DPS from drain, so how the Skah! is there any difference between a belg and a strig on that point.
1. Thanks for defining "majority" for me. Dictionary.com banned my IP and I wouldn't have known otherwise.

2. On a serious note, I don't really disagree with anything else you added here. But just because a toon has access to passive defense doesn't make it a golded (or even trained) attribute.

3. OK, let's assume that most fights are against other scouts. Yes, the Belgosch scout gives up DPS. We've discussed the tradeoff. The Belgosch scout can also pick its fight. It can decide "the toon on track is Deathmarch's scout, and he's a beast, I can't win 1 v. 1 (maybe the Strigoi is the difference, maybe it's all Deathmarch's skillful playstyle), I'm outta here." It can summon in help. It can stand its ground and take a chance. There are still options.

4. It's all about purpose, and I think we agree here. Let's be clear: if you want to run around the hotzone 1 v. 1 fighting stuff, the Belgosch scout isn't the BEST toon. You're leaving DPS on the table (how much is up for interpretation). If you want to run out to a rune drop, mine, leveling zone, and scout it out; Belgosch is your guy. My Belgosch INT/CON proccer could handle just about any other scout 1 v 1. Feral fury would've been nice, but it also would've sacrificed utility.


So basically what you're saying is, you don't disagree with any part of Cry's post and made a long-winded, confrontational response supposedly "correcting" his "assumptions" unnecessarily.
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:45 am

Such fervor over this vamp scout....love it!
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:50 am

Lot's of arguing over nothing going on here. This is merely perspective. I do agree with Maxwell in the statement that the DPS increase of Strigoi is very situational, but frankly that's common sense. I tend to view the Bow Scout as a support toon more than a "killer". I feel there are MANY rogues, even other Scout builds, that I would vastly prefer when "Doovoo'ing". I play my Vamp Bow Scout with DR to support the killers, GM bow powers are outstanding, add the speed and summon, and its an invaluable asset to any small scale PVP. But there I said it, small scale PVP. In many other situations and against many other opponents, I'd say a bow Scout is near useless. The choice is why we love Shadowbane....so why can't we all just get along lol.

Moving on, I rarely see eye to eye with Rixie, but I agree with the aforementioned stat layout. All Int/Dex.....with 90-100 Con. I loved that toon.

Respectfully,

M
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:56 am

Two posts in a row that you've agreed with me on. Lol.

What is this nonsense?!

But yeah, that state layout with proper gear equals a well rounded scout.

I prefer an aelf, or an elf for the trololol factor.
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:39 am

Running 162% (41 trains)

How did you come up with this? I'm interested in vamp scout, but that number seems rather insane for 41 trains, don't you think?

Edit: It seems to jump to 138% at 46 trains.
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:25 am

Nehemia wrote:Running 162% (41 trains)

How did you come up with this? I'm interested in vamp scout, but that number seems rather insane for 41 trains, don't you think?

Edit: It seems to jump to 138% at 46 trains.
Took the numbers from http://pyetrek.redlem.com/

Not saying they are correct, but 41 trains was all I was going to spend on running ;)
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:32 pm

Mac wrote:
Nehemia wrote:Running 162% (41 trains)

How did you come up with this? I'm interested in vamp scout, but that number seems rather insane for 41 trains, don't you think?

Edit: It seems to jump to 138% at 46 trains.
Took the numbers from http://pyetrek.redlem.com/

Not saying they are correct, but 41 trains was all I was going to spend on running ;)
Hm, there might be something up with my calc as well, since its from 2010.
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:27 pm

maxwell wrote:
Cryfowl wrote:On a solo playing PvP vamp rogue :
Strigoi= ~+25% DPS bonus
or
Summon in help.

And the debate here is?
3. Your 25% doesn't apply to the vamp drain (or, at best, it applies at a lower rate, since passive defense kicks is only 50% as effective against spells and drains). It also doesn't account for the vamp drain being a two-for-one (transfer of health vs. mere DPS). So great, the passive-defense scout dodges 25% of my attacks. It's far less likely to dodge my 600 pt. drain, which is a 1,200 pt. net DPS.


Yes Pd works at 50% (dodge only) against spells including drain however in all reality if you are solo PvPing a veteran bow scout you won't land enough drains to matter as he will stun you out of them with a quickness. You will likely be running in search of mobs to drain. This is one of the reasons I'v enever personally cared much for playing a vamp scout.


I really have to laugh at this. Back on the PTC boards I had a lengthy discussion about the realative values of FF only it was I who underestimated it's value until i thoroughly did the math on it. The more you solo on that vampthe valuable it becomes.

In no ways am I saying i prefer vamp scouts or am i defending the vast superiority of FF over a summons as each have their strengths in entirely differrent areas. Let me clarify. If i were running a vamp scout in group support, solo bane recon,( or really with a group at all) I'd choose summons.

If however I wanted a general purpose scout that was capable of plenty of solo work and can still fill in as needed in a group setting I'd go with FF every time.

My numbers are accurate I assure you. When I ran them i assumed an opponent with 100% PD and your bow attk speed of 35.0 Feel free to run them again yourself but please share it when your done. In the end I was satisfied that FF equates to an increase of roughly +25% DPS for your toon. This of course is straight dmg and does not take proccing into consideration. If you happen to be using procs then that overall DPS number will shoot up considerably as I have found through my current study in CB that PD does indeed prevent procs.
Last edited by Cryfowl on Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:17 pm

Mac wrote:
Nehemia wrote:Running 162% (41 trains)

How did you come up with this? I'm interested in vamp scout, but that number seems rather insane for 41 trains, don't you think?

Edit: It seems to jump to 138% at 46 trains.
Took the numbers from http://pyetrek.redlem.com/

Not saying they are correct, but 41 trains was all I was going to spend on running ;)

At least 135% running with FOF is how I build my scouts.
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Re: Vamp Bow Scout

Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:57 pm

I'm still spinning my head with the starting runes, hopping between TaN & tough hide, lucky, FoF, should I roll higher than 160 dex or.

Bleh, sometimes it feels its just not worth it, thanks to the toon being a Scout.
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