Bards in the next Phase

Starfish
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Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:07 am

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We went into the Bard changes with the thoughts that "Hey, Bards are great. They fill a unique role, it's powerful and their powers are very different to other support classes. But it really falls down in rewarding active thought, proactiveness outside of roots and didn't really feel all that fun to play sometimes."

The new support bard is focused on replenishment, situational chants and choices. An active bard will be rewarded tenfold compared to a bot or someone using a chant macro and all chants have a situational use. Playing a bard (even an int one in certain circumstances!) will be rewarding and a lot more fun.
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Click here for larger size: http://i.imgur.com/Q4u1BSA.png
  • Gentle Melody, Restive Melody and Calming Melody no longer stack. Each Melody will overwrite the previous Melody.
  • Ragnor's Rede of Rending, Cuthric's Rede of Cunning and Dela's Rede of Deftness Each Rede no longer stack. Each Rede will overwrite the previous Rede.
  • All bard chants now last 60s, with a 30s recast.
  • Ragnor's Rede of Rending now GMs at +40% damage down from +50%.
  • Gentle Melody now, in addition to the passive regen heals for a small amount of health every 5s for 30s. This works while on the move.
  • Restive Melody now, in addition to the passive regen, heals a small amount of stamina every 5s for 30s. This works while on the move.
  • Calming Melody now, in addition to the passive regen heals for a small amount of mana every 5s for 30s. This works while on the move.
  • Mighty Countersong's recast has been increased from 10s to 20s. We're looking closely at this change.
  • The Rhythm of Steel has been renamed "Dela's Rede of Deftness". It is now a +160ATR Rede Chant.
  • Baleful Battlehymn has been renamed "Cuthric's Rede of Cunning". It is a +150DEF Rede Chant.
  • We may be looking at removing the stun component of Dread Dissonance and replacing it with a more useful support oriented secondary effect. Feedback would be great!
Thank you for reading. Hope this gives you some insight into what Bards may end up being in the next phase. As always, everything here is still in internal testing and subject to change.

Feedback is always appreciated!
zenjah
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:34 am

Seems like some interesting ideas. Happy to try them out.

I'd be curious about the reasoning for the reduction in the damage chant from +50% to +40%.

Also, it would be nice if the damage chant did not remove personal damage buffs (such as from Skydancer or Knight), especially if it is going to be weaker now. Ideally, when a damage chant fades, the personal damage buff would re-appear. This could presumably be done using the same method that was used to allow wereform speed buffs to return after being overwritten by a Sprint.

Will Cuthric's Rede of Cunning stack with other defense buffs?
Starfish
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:42 am

Yes, Cuthric is currently set to stack with everything. The damage reduction is in part of our effort to make personal 50% damage buffs more powerful vs group damage chants and lowering the "burst" of melee in general. We just wanted there to be more options for melee.

Great suggestion on the damage chant!
UmbraSprite
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:55 am

Methinks that if the health recovery stacks we will see a large increase in bard/ranger groups.
chimpy
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:10 pm

As a long time player of this class, I can't say that these changes are overly exciting to me. Bards are tight on trains so I don't see the situation where I have 12 of them GM'd to be the situational super star. In reality, I never really used more than 3 at a time and typically only had 5 trained. We should be looking at the complimenting spells like Rit, Molto, CS, MCS, etc and figuring out how to make those more dynamic.
Starfish
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:06 pm

chimpy wrote:As a long time player of this class, I can't say that these changes are overly exciting to me. Bards are tight on trains so I don't see the situation where I have 12 of them GM'd to be the situational super star. In reality, I never really used more than 3 at a time and typically only had 5 trained. We should be looking at the complimenting spells like Rit, Molto, CS, MCS, etc and figuring out how to make those more dynamic.
The "Songs" category (all the resist chants) will cap at 20 points. We're looking into the feasibility of the Melodies working the same way. We can't do it for the Rede chants (combat influenced) due to those being very powerful in the solo arena and it makes their scaling very strange for the client.

I think there's a long way to go for Bards, but this is a good start. Baby steps! :)
kherak1
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:14 pm

I like the changes but I feel like these could cause alot of extra lag in large fights. That's going to be alot of group healing messages going out with everyone having a bard in their group.
Gadarkman
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:49 pm

Bring back the old bard hats those were sweet. ;)
Khal
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:10 pm

kherak1 wrote:I like the changes but I feel like these could cause alot of extra lag in large fights. That's going to be alot of group healing messages going out with everyone having a bard in their group.

Only noobs run around with unfiltered power spam in large scale fights...
kherak1
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:55 pm

Khal wrote:
kherak1 wrote:I like the changes but I feel like these could cause alot of extra lag in large fights. That's going to be alot of group healing messages going out with everyone having a bard in their group.

Only noobs run around with unfiltered power spam in large scale fights...
Yes, but the server still has to send all the information to all the players in the area. I don't know much about how it all works but i'm sure it would put extra stress on the server.

I think the team just needs to be really careful when changing or adding new abilities that could potentially cause more performance issues.
Colest
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:56 pm

kherak1 wrote:
Khal wrote:
kherak1 wrote:I like the changes but I feel like these could cause alot of extra lag in large fights. That's going to be alot of group healing messages going out with everyone having a bard in their group.

Only noobs run around with unfiltered power spam in large scale fights...
Yes, but the server still has to send all the information to all the players in the area. I don't know much about how it all works but i'm sure it would put extra stress on the server.

I think the team just needs to be really careful when changing or adding new abilities that could potentially cause more performance issues.
Rich or Adam correct me if I'm out of line here but performance issues LITERALLY having nothing to do with that.
Drenath
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:00 pm

Starfish wrote:
chimpy wrote:As a long time player of this class, I can't say that these changes are overly exciting to me. Bards are tight on trains so I don't see the situation where I have 12 of them GM'd to be the situational super star. In reality, I never really used more than 3 at a time and typically only had 5 trained. We should be looking at the complimenting spells like Rit, Molto, CS, MCS, etc and figuring out how to make those more dynamic.
The "Songs" category (all the resist chants) will cap at 20 points. We're looking into the feasibility of the Melodies working the same way. We can't do it for the Rede chants (combat influenced) due to those being very powerful in the solo arena and it makes their scaling very strange for the client.

I think there's a long way to go for Bards, but this is a good start. Baby steps! :)
So in the screenshots above, since they say 40/GM but they actually cap at 20/JM, are you getting 40% damage, 160 atr, and 150 def for 60 total trains?
Starfish
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:40 pm

No. Those are Redes, as above they will continue to cap at GM due to their more direct combat influence (and to ensure some build diversity). Whether or not Bards need the Melodies to cap at JM instead of GM is up to the community and balance results!
Sek
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:45 pm

What I read: Bards are getting nurfed.
Pretty badly.

Could someone tell me am I right? Or not?
Sek
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:49 pm

Actually, scratch that post above. It`s late, and I was reading it wrong.
Actually I still don`t understand how exactly is this supposed to work, but nevermind...
tooshifty
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:51 am

That heal on the regen buff just made my fav pk bard build better. Mayhaps i should roll it...if only i didnt need a thousands uh runes already.
sildenafil
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:44 pm

Awesome, now will you please make it so that chants do not take so long to cast - I think they were originally 0.2 seconds or something like that, and they should be again so I can recycle my chant and then root/snare/cast without such a long delay.
Facedefy
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:34 am

Looks good. As far as Dread Dissonance goes, a 5-10 second chant dispel/block effect could be interesting.
longblade
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:23 am

Why is Ragnor's Rede of Rending now GMing at +40% damage, down from +50%, when Crusader GM's at 50% with it's AoE dam chant?
Starfish
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:27 am

It's likely all Group Damage Chants will be coming down to 40%, but we're still ironing out the details.
Vampirus
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:03 pm

well this is going to be interesting, i like "the idea" of what you are trying to do with the chants. the changes purposed are workable.

FIRST: if you are going to make any changes to bard, how about increasing the staff weapon powers. After all, they do have a bard staff but garbage powers? this never made any sense. :)

Ragnor's rede of rending: Group Damage chant down to 40% from 50% - for 40 trains it does not seem like it would even be worth doing it over a commanders 30% for 20 trains and it makes the "utility" of the bard even less important in a meat group as most melee toons should have there own commander damage chant going.

Cuthrics rede of cunning: if this stacks with concoction potions and is a group chant, this may be a new MUST have over say RoR (because a commy chant will be active) who doesnt want more def on a def toon. will this stack with 'now stacking' personal def buffs? YOWZA!

Dela's Rede of Deftness: more atr............um....... ya i guess thats cool

Gentle Melody: am i reading this correct, are bards now getting a group HoT and regen chant? this will be a must have. obviously it cant be restoration based as they dont have it....so is it going to scale with bardsong trains? this will definitely make having bards important again. I like it :)

Restive melody: see gentle melody (anti templar?)

Calming Melody: see gentle melody (anti doomy?)

Mighty counter-song: increased from 10 to 20. well that makes it less useful with group debuffs flying about from everyone else, it may no longer be useful to train this? hmmm? we will see

Dread Dissonance: replacing the baby stun....well i guess that could be a good idea, maybe roll dread dissonance and retardando together ( and molto retard with pallando's puns) instead of snare, maybe a healing resist, or magic debuff? not sure it needs to be changed, but sure why not. maybe a mana drain, or stam drain... perhaps a def cut or atr cut, (as a side note, pallando's puns should no longer be point blank aoe)


Song of Spring (SoS) will still be a very important in GvG, but how about some love to Song of warding, Litany of Focus, and song of fortitude. I have never put more than one point in any of them, what about making two other SOS type chants that may actually get used. Perhaps one for holy/unholy, and the other for magic/mental? just a thought

even if i have a soft spot for neph, elf, and irekie bards....may need to be human just for the trains. (looking forward to testing it out)
Koots
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:35 am

@Vampirus:
The Melody heals scale off of Bardsong but do not expect crazy numbers out of these powers. The most important aspect of these chants is that characters get something now even whilst moving.
Vampirus
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:30 pm

thanks for the clarification. I hope its not too gimped and at least on the scale of say the Aracoix and irekie rune Hots

(what about some staff love.....you know you wanna......)
tooshifty
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:53 am

im trying to think of a good support add to bard nuke instead of the 3sec stun.

-Snare: makes sense to me...i know id nuke more with that on a support bard.

-stam or mana drain on the nuke doesnt seem to fit the class...outside of a rogue proc caster.

-multi-Stat debuff: suits the class perfectly

-Ground: also suits the class

-healing resistance debuff would kind of work...but assassins make that more pointless

-put a pb on it? that would be some interesting new control for bards.

-10% blind: stacks with other blinds... odd thought...but it fits well imo ...maybe even the best.

-elemental and magic resist debuff that is stackable(not with fury)...maybe -15 each?
Logan
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:57 am

I think you are doing decently with the group aspect of bards but I think it would be nice if they could do more than just be a support character.

Bards used to be one of the fastest characters which made them fun to kite with. I think it would be nice if they got the running skill and a few more skill points to make solo-pvp bards a little more viable.
Logan
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Re: Bards in the next Phase

Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:58 am

I know my mage bard back before the run-buff changes was one of my favorite characters of all time. I'd love for something like that to be viable again. Just a completely different play-style.

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